This week, I'm chatting with Davey Jones, who is the CEO of the popular email lead generation tool, BDOW!, formerly called Sumo. You might be most familiar with Davey because he and his wife, Krista co-founded the branding and web design agency, Davey and Krista, and I've known them both for many years now because we all exist in the Showit designer world together. We actually first met in person back in 2020 pre-pandemic on a trip to Cabo that Showit took their top designers on, which is still like a pinch me dream trip I've done in my business.
Anyway—in this episode, Davey is going to teach how how you can optimize your website for more conversions and ultimately make more sales online by really just thinking about email marketing in a more strategic way.
We also talk about how you can use BDOW! To help grow your list, and so if you want to give that a try, you can use code ELIZABETH for 20% off.
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Who is Davey Jones of BDOW!?
I helped build a brand + website design agency—creatively named ‘Davey & Krista’—with my wife, Krista. A few years into that, I built an advertising agency, Till Agency, with two good friends of mine. That started because after you build somebody a website, the next question we would typically get would be, “Well, how do I drive traffic to this website? How do I get leads?”
And driving traffic and leads, doing the marketing and sales, was essentially what I did for ‘Davey & Krista,’ so usually those questions would be directed toward me. I took on a few clients under Davey & Krista helping them run Facebook ads and really enjoyed it. I had run into a few friends who had similar experience and both wanted to start an agency, so that’s what we did.
Fast forward a few later and here I am running BDOW!, which was formerly an app called Sumo. Some people might know it as Sumome. It's a form and pop-up tool that helps people build their email list.
Could you give us a behind-the-scenes look into what it was like purchasing Sumo, renaming it BDOW!, and becoming CEO?
Todd and I had been trying to do something together for a few years now. Todd’s been a friend for a long time now and someone I also consider a mentor. You talk about Showit a lot so I’m pretty sure your audience is familiar with what makes that such a special company.
An opportunity came up a few years ago and it took me a little while to decide that I wanted in. By the time I did, that opportunity had basically fallen through. Fast forward a year or two and another opportunity came across Todd’s desk. This time I knew right away that I wanted in, and fortunately, it worked out.
The process is wild. It’s like buying a house, but the deal feels more fragile and so many things can cause it to fall through. And it’s a bit more difficult in a number of ways because with a house, you can typically spend some time in it. A home inspection takes a few hours tops usually. Due diligence took 6+ months. With SAAS or software, you only get access to so much. Then there’s the added challenge of combing through a codebase that’s been built for over a decade.
I definitely learned a lot along the way throughout the process. As with anything there are probably a few things I would have done differently and a few questions I would have asked.
Choosing to Name BDOW!
I think many people wouldn’t recommend rebranding—or changing the name—after acquiring a product. Part of the reason you would acquire a product is for it’s brand recognition, and Sumo definitely had that. But we knew going into it that it would have to change. The Sumo Group, who owned Sumo, also owns AppSumo and KingSumo… so to avoid confusion, we thought it would be wise to rebrand.
We went through a lot of different name options, but eventually settled on BDOW! Which is a funny story on its own! The short version is: we had settled on a name, Todd (CEO of Showit) found Badow on an auction site, and it was so memorable that it just stuck. We did change the spelling but that was it!
Let’s be honest, everyone has an opinion when it comes to naming a product.
Here’s what we knew we wanted in a name:
- Memorable
- Easy domain / URL
- Room to grow
Sumo isn’t exactly a name that suggests what the app does, so we didn’t feel the pressure to choose another one that did. For instance, if it was originally called something like lead capture pro and then we changed the name to BDOW!, that would likely cause some unnecessary confusion.
How is BDOW! different from using traditional email opt-in forms?
BDOW! is specifically focused on getting more people on your email list, whereas an email marketing platform is a bit more focused on communicating with a list. We don’t see ourselves as competitors with email marketing platforms. We do have some built-in email features, but we also have integrations with dozens of other email platforms.
We want to help people build a big list, faster.
Helping Your Affiliates Sell
We offer a lot of advanced functionality. So our form and popup tools, you can set targeting rules that get really granular and there are so many different options. You can target people based on what website they're coming from. So for instance, after this episode airs, and so you have a code that people can use for BDOW! People can use your link and code ELIZABETH to get 20% off BDOW! Then, let's say somebody clicks on that link in the show notes and they come to the BDOW! website. We could show them a pop-up that maybe has your face on it and is like, “Hey, use Elizabeth Link right now to sign up and save 20%” and start drawing that connection between our two companies.
Running Ads and Promos
Another example is: sometimes you want to run maybe just a Facebook or Instagram specific campaign, so you want to show people a pop-up just for that set of visitors that can be helpful. Maybe you're running a Facebook ad campaign and you're running it to cold traffic, so people who have never heard of you before, you don't want to display a discount code all across your website, but you want to remind them on this Facebook ad they just clicked on and you want to remind them of that discount code. BDOW! Can help you with that very specific kind of pop-up.
Targeting Specific Pages or Visits
Beyond that, you could target people based on the number of times they've been to your site. So maybe somebody's new and you want to put up a popup that has a couple different links to your greatest hits or something similar. You could target people based on what page they're on, and then you can mix and match all of these targeting options to get, again, even more granular just to make sure that you're showing the right popup to the right person.
A/B Testing and Integrations
We also offer things like A/B testing and have dozens of integrations, so this is something that’s really easy to use too. For example, oftentimes when you collect a lead, you might want to do more with that lead than just send it to your email marketing list. So you could set up multiple integrations to send that lead to different places wherever you may want to send it. We also have Zapier integration, so you really can do whatever you want with that data.
Hidden Fields
We also have hidden fields, and hidden fields are awesome because you can collect information about your subscribers that your subscribers can't see. So for instance, let's say you have a popup that appears across your whole website, but you want to know on what page does that pop up most convert. You could use a hidden field that would grab the URL of the page a popup is filled out on, and then you could run a report and say, okay, this is the page that this popup is mostly completed on.
Where is a good place to start when it comes to lead generation and growing our email list to make more sales?
I think that businesses that are growing and consistently making sales are always doing some sort of lead generation. So we always encourage people to have something on their website, some sort of freebie that people are going to get in exchange for their email address. So that's a good place to start. Just standard having a popup that appears, that sends people to a landing page where they can complete a form and get that freebie. You always want to be building your email list, and you can always market to those people down the road.
Plus, if you're selling something like templates or a course, you could always offer new visitors a one-time discount code that they could use. This is one of the easiest things to set up, especially if you use WooCommerce or Shopify. So you can integrate with WooCommerce or Shopify using BDOW! for instance. We use WooCommerce, and when you connect that integration, you can create a discount campaign. When you create the discount campaign, you set up your discount, so whatever you want it to be, whether it's $20 off or 20% off or whatnot, you set up the code and anytime somebody completes that popup, they will be generated a code that's unique to them.
From there, what you can do, again with that hidden field functionality, is you can send not only the subscriber information to your email marketing platform, but the discount code as well. So then when you follow with people, you can say, “Hey, Elizabeth, thanks for expressing interest in (whatever product it is). Remember you have 48 hours to use this code, and then you can dynamically insert the code in the email”.
I think those are one of the most effective campaigns. It's so simple to set up and then it's so effective.
How do we use pop-ups in a way that’s not annoying?
Yes, exactly, so with Showit, of course, we all love Showit and it’s definitely our recommended website platform, but there's additional controls as well. I mean people get annoyed popups because it seems like something that's often interrupts us, but really a pop-up should meet a visitor where they're at. So for instance, with a lot of just website platforms, you can set it to trigger on a certain scroll depth, so somebody scrolls 50% of the page and the pop-up appears. But what happens is if they scroll up the page and then back down the page, it appears again, even if they opted out. In BDOW!, there's more granular settings so that if you don't want to show a pop-up again to somebody who has opted out of that pop-up, like they've clicked the X, then you can set it not to appear or you can set it not to appear for two days so that there's some space between that.
Another one of my favorite features lately of BDOW! is our show a tab feature. And so the way this works is you can create a popup that when somebody clicks out of it, it minimizes to the bottom of the screen. So there's a little bar that shows up at the bottom of the screen, and it'll have some sort of title. So let's say it's a discount campaign, save 15% or whatnot. If they click it or if they click out of it, it goes to the bottom and it'll just save 15%. And so if people want to return to it, all they have to do is click it and it pops back up. So it's a way to have the power of a popup getting a message in front of somebody, but at the same time not being as obtrusive.
What are some stats we should be aware of when evaluating whether or not our form/lead magnet is working?
Here are some general benchmarks:
- Landing page or squeeze page with a free offer: 30-50%
- Blog Post w/ a form or pop-up: It’s going to vary wildly.
The easier to consume the freebie = the more people are going to sign up. For an ebook, a landing page might see closer to 50%. For a webinar, around 30% might be more common.
One of the reasons pop-ups vary so wildly is that you really need the right kind of pop-up for the job. For example, something like a “click trigger pop-up” appears really high-converting because people essentially have to click it in order for it to appear. So of course that’s going to convert higher than something else where someone didn’t ask by “clicking for it.”
The more dialed in and relevant the freebie, the higher the conversion.
If you’re building an email list and relying solely on a form in your footer that says “join my newsletter,” you’re probably seeing very low conversion rates. My guess would be well under 2%. It’s not that you shouldn’t have a form field in your footer; it just shouldn’t be the primary way you’re building your list.
How can we target the most relevant blog posts with the best freebie?
So this is one of the neat things about BDOW! is that it's really easy to target multiple pages. So maybe for instance, every time you write about brand design in the URL, you're going to mention brand design in the URL. From there, you can target slugs that contain specific words, and then that way you're targeting more than one blog post at a time, and you don't have to go and grab every single specific link that you want to target.
You don’t need to have a different lead magnet for every single blog post. I’m a big believer that you only need one really effective lead magnet to be successful. Focus on placing popups and forms on your most-visited pages, as those are likely to generate the highest conversions. This approach helps you leverage your existing traffic and ensures your popups are seen by the right audience without getting overly complicated.
Read more: Your Step-by-Step Guide to Creating a Quiz Lead Magnet in 2024 (Using Interact and Showit)
What are some common mistakes you see business owners making with lead generation?
One of the biggest mistakes is creating something new instead of leveraging what already works. New content is always unproven content. Instead of creating a brand-new piece of content, look at tools you already use and templatize them. For example, I turned an existing SEO brief we used in all my businesses into a lead magnet. It took 15 minutes to create and was effective because it was something we regularly used to get results.
Another mistake is not solving specific problems for specific people. You need to know your ideal customer well; otherwise, you end up offering broad solutions that don’t appeal. People want quick wins from solving specific issues. For example, a product that says, "This protects your tree trunks from weed eaters" stands out more than a broad solution.
Thinking that providing a lot of information is the same as providing a quick win is another common mistake. I once created a 50-page eBook, but it would’ve been more effective to cut it down to a single page that focused on solving one specific problem. The same goes for courses—people want answers, not lengthy content. If you can solve a problem in two lessons, don't stretch it to five.
Not sharing your lead magnet enough is also a big issue. Many create a lead magnet, add it to their website, and then rarely mention it. You need to talk about your lead magnet regularly—almost every day. Whenever you discuss a related topic, find an opportunity to mention it.
Overcomplicating things is another mistake. Many believe they need complex funnels with multiple sequences and automation, but simplicity sells. You don’t even need a lead magnet to start building your list. Offer valuable content consistently without overcomplicating the process. Even something like “I’m emailing about XYZ tomorrow” can give people a reason to sign up.
Lastly, thinking you’ll "give away too much" in your lead magnet is a misconception. It’s nearly impossible to overshare, and being transparent builds trust. Make sure your lead magnet provides real value and is relevant to what you offer. Ensure it’s aligned with your business to attract the right audience. For example, I once created a blogging template that went viral with college students, but they weren’t my target audience, so they never bought from me. Always make sure your lead magnet speaks to your ideal customer.
Read more: How to Write Emails That *Actually* Get Opens, Clicks, and Replies With Emily Conley
What should someone check first if their email list isn’t growing, even though they have a way for people to sign up on their website?
Start with simple solutions before diving into more complicated, time-consuming ones. First, make sure everything is working correctly—sometimes a form isn’t connected properly, or there’s a technical issue. Next, review the copy on your landing page or popup. Is it benefit-focused? Is it easily skimmable with a clear headline and bullet points? Also, make sure it’s clear what the visitor will get from your lead magnet.
Then, check where you’re sharing the opt-in. It should be on high-traffic pages, like your homepage, or in your Instagram bio. Make sure it’s easy to find and doesn’t take multiple clicks to reach. Consistency is key—are you sharing about it regularly?
If your lead magnet isn’t performing well, try changing its title. For example, on our website, we changed a set of graphics from "Website Launch Graphics" to "Free Social Share Graphics," and the leads increased significantly without changing the content. Sometimes, a small tweak like that can make all the difference.
Lastly, keep things simple. We often start with a Google Doc for our lead magnets because it’s easy to use and quick to create. If it performs well, we might later design it into something more polished. This approach lets us test ideas without spending too much time upfront.
How can popups be effectively used on a website beyond just growing your email list?
Popups are incredibly versatile and one of the best ways to start a conversation with your website visitors. Have as many conversations as possible.
Another idea is that you can promote sales by using sticky bars across your website—these are horizontal bars that sit at the top or bottom of your site, displaying messages like "Save 25% today," and can include countdown timers to create urgency.
Another tool is the scroll box, which slides in from the bottom or corner of your website and can provide links like, "Hey, it looks like you're new here. Check out these links." Scroll boxes can also be used for social proof, showcasing testimonials on your sales page as visitors read through, which builds credibility.
One of the most effective ways we’ve used popups is for webinar funnels. For example, you can set up an exit intent popup on your webinar registration page. When someone tries to leave the page, the popup appears saying, "Wait, if you register now, you'll get a free bonus." This tactic helped one of our clients gain an extra 175 webinar registrations, which can translate into thousands of dollars in sales. The beauty of BDOW! is that you can set this up in about 10 minutes.
Popups can also be personalized and controlled to enhance the user experience. For example, if someone exits a popup, you can have it minimize into a small bar at the bottom of the screen instead of disappearing entirely, making it less obtrusive. Unlike traditional popups that can be annoying, BDOW! lets you tailor them to be helpful, like an in-store associate asking if you need assistance. This ensures your popups enhance the user's journey rather than disrupt it.
How does BDOW! address common concerns about popups being annoying or intrusive?
Popups only become annoying when they're irrelevant, hard to close, or appear at the wrong time. BDOW! gives you a lot of control over how and when your popups appear. For example, you can set popups not to show on mobile devices or limit their frequency, ensuring they don't disrupt the user experience.
I compare it to walking into a store—if no one asks if you need help, it feels like poor customer service. Similarly, a well-placed popup should feel like a friendly assistant asking if there's something you need. It’s all about relevance and timing, and BDOW! makes it easy to achieve this. The goal is to provide assistance and guide users in a way that feels natural, not intrusive.
How can people connect with you and learn more about BDOW!?
You can find out more about BDOW! at BDOW.com, and you can follow us on social media @bdowleads. You can also connect with me personally on Instagram @DaveyTJonesy.
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